I recently learned about a powerful, longstanding right-wing Christian secretive society called "The Family." Among their ranks are Francis Shaeffer, Chuck Colson, Ronald Reagan and several current US Senators (both Republican and Democrat).
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120746516
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106115324
One wonders how much influence they had in Reagan's Iran-Contra deal, and whether or not an investigation into this group is in order.
Thursday, November 26, 2009
Wednesday, November 11, 2009
Were the disciples regenerated before the resurrection?
I say, "No."
For example, let's look at Peter's testimony:
http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=...pter=1&verse=3
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Note that, despite following Jesus instantly, Peter (along with the other disciples) was "slow of heart to believe":
Lu 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Their hope was the release of Israel (from bondage to Rome):
Lu 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Peter was offended by the death of Jesus:
Matthew 16:
21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Jesus spoke of Peter's conversion as still future:
Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail [be preempted] not: and **when thou art converted**, strengthen thy brethren.
I hold that Peter and the other disciples were not converted until the resurrection, and only then were 11 regenerated. One might even argue that they were not regenerated until:
John 20:
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost [breath]:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Thomas, who was not there then, was not regenerated until later:
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 ¶ And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Jesus had repeatedly referred to the disciples as "faithless" (without faith):
Mt 17:
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
At every turn, we see selfish, foolish, cowardly, unbelieving behavior:
Mark 9:
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
I hold that they were *faithful Jews,* and as such belonged to the "first flock" of Jesus, or the 144,000:
Rev 14:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
The view from here...
Bill Ross
For example, let's look at Peter's testimony:
http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=...pter=1&verse=3
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Note that, despite following Jesus instantly, Peter (along with the other disciples) was "slow of heart to believe":
Lu 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Their hope was the release of Israel (from bondage to Rome):
Lu 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Peter was offended by the death of Jesus:
Matthew 16:
21 ¶ From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Jesus spoke of Peter's conversion as still future:
Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail [be preempted] not: and **when thou art converted**, strengthen thy brethren.
I hold that Peter and the other disciples were not converted until the resurrection, and only then were 11 regenerated. One might even argue that they were not regenerated until:
John 20:
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost [breath]:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Thomas, who was not there then, was not regenerated until later:
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 ¶ And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Jesus had repeatedly referred to the disciples as "faithless" (without faith):
Mt 17:
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21 Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.
At every turn, we see selfish, foolish, cowardly, unbelieving behavior:
Mark 9:
31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
32 But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
33 And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
34 But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who should be the greatest.
I hold that they were *faithful Jews,* and as such belonged to the "first flock" of Jesus, or the 144,000:
Rev 14:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
The view from here...
Bill Ross
Tuesday, November 10, 2009
Song of songs - literal impression
Be sure to look at the image on the right hand side of the page...
http://www.acts17-11.com/snip_song.html
http://www.acts17-11.com/snip_song.html
In what sense is Jesus a "lamb?"
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The common interpretation of this passage is to understand John to be describing Jesus as a sacrifice for sin, who, by vicariously suffering God's wrath, removes the sins of believers (or, in the case of Calvinists, of the "elect").
This is way off target.
First of all, the sin of the world was not removed when Jesus died.
Secondly, a "lamb" is not a significant animal in the sacrificial system. Adult goats, yes, though the animal that bears away the sin of the Jews on Yom Kippur is the scape goat - the goat that lives and carries the sins off into the wilderness.
Some suggest that a lamb is the figure of the Passover. Actually, the animal of the passover was also an adult flock animal, most likely a goat. But even if it were a lamb, it would not be a sacrifice for sin. Sin offerings were not eaten. Their bodies were burned outside of the camp:
Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
So in what sense IS Jesus a lamb?
The term "lamb of God" is similar to our expression, "God's kid," only without the flippancy. And it is not applied to any in Judaism but the Messiah. Furthermore, the figure is one of a violent purger of sin from the earth, not a sacrificial victim:
Testament of Joseph at
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-08/anf08-15.htm
19. Hear ye also, my children, the visions which I saw. There were twelve deer feeding, and the nine were divided and scattered in the land, likewise also the three. And I saw that from Judah was born a virgin wearing a linen garment, and from her went forth a Lamb, without spot, and on His left hand there was as it were a lion; and all the beasts rushed against Him, and the lamb overcame them, and destroyed them, and trod them under foot. And because of Him the angels rejoiced, and men, and all the earth. And these things shall take place in their season, in the last days. Do ye therefore, my children, observe the commandments of the Lord, and honour Judah and Levi; for from them shall arise unto you the Lamb of God, by grace saving all the Gentiles and Israel. For His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, which shall not be shaken; but my kingdom among yogi shall come to an end as a watcher's hammock, which after the summer will not appear.
So, taking away the sin of the world is an act of judgment. Think of Sylvester Stallone in "Lamb-O"!
Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Re 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Note that John expected this purging:
Mt 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Lu 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
When Jesus didn't get with that program, John the baptizer doubted him:
Mt 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Lu 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
Lu 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
So, perhaps the main figure in Christian iconography is based on a misinterpretation of the role of the lamb.
The common interpretation of this passage is to understand John to be describing Jesus as a sacrifice for sin, who, by vicariously suffering God's wrath, removes the sins of believers (or, in the case of Calvinists, of the "elect").
This is way off target.
First of all, the sin of the world was not removed when Jesus died.
Secondly, a "lamb" is not a significant animal in the sacrificial system. Adult goats, yes, though the animal that bears away the sin of the Jews on Yom Kippur is the scape goat - the goat that lives and carries the sins off into the wilderness.
Some suggest that a lamb is the figure of the Passover. Actually, the animal of the passover was also an adult flock animal, most likely a goat. But even if it were a lamb, it would not be a sacrifice for sin. Sin offerings were not eaten. Their bodies were burned outside of the camp:
Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
So in what sense IS Jesus a lamb?
The term "lamb of God" is similar to our expression, "God's kid," only without the flippancy. And it is not applied to any in Judaism but the Messiah. Furthermore, the figure is one of a violent purger of sin from the earth, not a sacrificial victim:
Testament of Joseph at
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-08/anf08-15.htm
19. Hear ye also, my children, the visions which I saw. There were twelve deer feeding, and the nine were divided and scattered in the land, likewise also the three. And I saw that from Judah was born a virgin wearing a linen garment, and from her went forth a Lamb, without spot, and on His left hand there was as it were a lion; and all the beasts rushed against Him, and the lamb overcame them, and destroyed them, and trod them under foot. And because of Him the angels rejoiced, and men, and all the earth. And these things shall take place in their season, in the last days. Do ye therefore, my children, observe the commandments of the Lord, and honour Judah and Levi; for from them shall arise unto you the Lamb of God, by grace saving all the Gentiles and Israel. For His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, which shall not be shaken; but my kingdom among yogi shall come to an end as a watcher's hammock, which after the summer will not appear.
So, taking away the sin of the world is an act of judgment. Think of Sylvester Stallone in "Lamb-O"!
Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Re 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Re 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Note that John expected this purging:
Mt 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Lu 3:9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
When Jesus didn't get with that program, John the baptizer doubted him:
Mt 11:3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Lu 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
Lu 7:20 When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
So, perhaps the main figure in Christian iconography is based on a misinterpretation of the role of the lamb.
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